tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21595148.post8348516980429549423..comments2023-11-05T07:22:58.867-05:00Comments on Wide Open on the Mommybahn: NO! NO! NO!: Logical Consequences and the Crisis of OppositionTestdriverhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03596324722878187186noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21595148.post-668293037399399502009-01-09T14:27:00.000-05:002009-01-09T14:27:00.000-05:00Have you seen any of Alfie Kohn's parenting stuff?...Have you seen any of Alfie Kohn's parenting stuff? I first fell in love with his "The Punishment of Rewards" and have moved on to "Unconditional Parenting." I haven't read all of your blog yet (although, having found it this morning, I have to say I've done a pretty good job getting through 2/3 of it!!) I love Alfie's approach AND I'm also a big fan of the Positive Discipline series -- although I haven't gotten to put it into much practice yet. I have two step-children, ages 13 and 8 and I'm getting ready to have my first baby in 8 weeks -- planning for a Montessori environment, but we'll see. Love, LOVE, your blog.Deb McKee Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10199097730797538486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21595148.post-51373606502840478902008-11-14T21:10:00.000-05:002008-11-14T21:10:00.000-05:00This is a fantastic post! Thank you, thank you, t...This is a fantastic post! Thank you, thank you, thank you!<BR/>I got so much out of this and you confirmed SO much that I am trying to do. It's good to know that I'm using alot of these principles.<BR/><BR/>When you said:<BR/>"Other things are open to negotiation, and I do think it's ok to negotiate with toddlers, and even to be persuaded by them, because it empowers them, and helps them to understand that talking can sometimes work (whereas whining and hitting do not) to get you what you want."<BR/>YES! Thank you for this too! I have been told I am "intimidated by my daughter" and am too weak because I negociate. She is strong-willed and I am normally compliant, so I know that manipulatation and bullying on her part are things to watch for, but I am trying but to bulldoze HER thoughts and wishes.<BR/><BR/>And yes on the losing respect with spankings. I have, and she did. :(<BR/>I don't any more. I wish my husband wouldn't either . . . <BR/><BR/>Is Nuvy's father on board with all of this? My husband comes from a VERY authoritarian family and he is extremely skeptical of this "freedom" and "respect" with regards to children thing. :)M. T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03115437062064589399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21595148.post-75166843798114479972008-11-03T23:54:00.000-05:002008-11-03T23:54:00.000-05:00I love that you're back! You are back, right? Thi...I love that you're back! You are back, right? This isn't just a once-in-a-blue-moon post?<BR/><BR/>Discipline is so difficult for me. I had traditional (bad) discipline growing up, and much as I disagree with these tactics, I find myself reverting to them (though tempered at least) when the going gets tough. <BR/><BR/>Thank you for confiding the occasional smack and not-so-occasional yelling. I've done these too, even though I know better, and I wonder if I will ever let go of feeling guilty for not being a perfect mother.<BR/><BR/>But on to my question: what do you think about ignoring bad behavior? If you recall, I have one 4 yr old on the spectrum and a 16 mos old who seems to be developing typically. We use some behavioral techniques for my oldest, which I try to marry best as I can with what I know about Montessori, and behaviorists will tell you that even negative attention reinforces undesired behavior. How does this square with Montessori philosophy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21595148.post-71086305483929677382008-10-22T03:47:00.000-04:002008-10-22T03:47:00.000-04:00Oh thank you so much! It is encouraging to read as...Oh thank you so much! It is encouraging to read as I do agree so much with your words.<BR/>My son is only 14 months old, and his behavior has been mostly cooperative so far. For now, our logical consequences are mostly physical - meaning removing him from the area or object he is abusive to and redirecting his behavior. Sometimes I ignore his behavior (screaming or crying to get what he wanted, for example), as I think it will stop when he has the language. Indeed, he usually stops screaming after a few moments. If he hurts anyone, I just remove his hands away, if he insists, I hold them in mine for awhile. I explain that by hurting he hurts this person's feelings. Thanks!Mirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07876205340533561739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21595148.post-49887389006051709872008-10-22T01:04:00.000-04:002008-10-22T01:04:00.000-04:00Hi, Miri.Hmm. I hope I understand your questions c...Hi, Miri.<BR/><BR/>Hmm. I hope I understand your questions correctly. Most of my experience with this method has been with Montessori children who are not my own, but who are in school. It is a very different thing to be sure. <BR/><BR/>this is long, and there are many more examples, and I hope some others of you will offer yours as well. These are a few of mine: <BR/><BR/>I do use logical consequences as our "punishment", but I don't consider it a punishment so much as a cause-and-effect relationship between events. That is how I want Nuvy to view it, too. A punishment, to me, is a consequence of the displeasure of the parent, and as such is meant to hit the child where it hurts. The immediate effect may be obedience, but the larger lesson is that the child should endeavor not to displease the parent. Nice, but I don't think it is the most productive message for the child.<BR/><BR/>A logical consequence at our house might look like this:<BR/><BR/>If you use a toy or tool inappropriately (assuming the child knows the appropriate way to handle the object--say, a crayon), you are asked to relinquish it, and may not play with it again for a time. You are then directed to another activity.<BR/><BR/>Most of our "consequences" arise from some derivative of mis-handling something, as above, and the consequence is immediate and directly related to the offense (write on the wall= no pens for a time, not "time out" or no outdoor play, or whatever other punishment you might think of--it gets too abstract very quickly). For a slightly older child, I would have her help clean the wall--but for many toddlers, that additional battle might make for a pyrrhic victory.<BR/><BR/>On hurting other people: if she is unkind to a friend or her brother, she is asked to go and play by herself, either in another room or at another activity in the same area. This sort of looks like time-out, but feels to me like a more direct consequence: abuse toy=lose toy. abuse companion=lose companion.<BR/><BR/>For opposition when I ask for her cooperation: If she won't put on her shoes, I just put off going outside until she's willing. If the outing can't be put off, I say, "I'm asking you to put on your shoes, but if you won't do it, I will do it for you, because we really have to go now." Then if she still refuses, I (as gently as possible while she's flailing) put the shoes on for her and ignore the screams. At that point, once the battle is lost, she usually stops fighting. I try to give a kind word and a hug, and ask if she's feeling better. That usually defuses it.<BR/><BR/>If she is abusive to me (hits, throws things at me, bites) the consequence is that I show my displeasure in a pretty unmistakeable way. I think that is a logical consequence, and one she will reliably encounter with others, which is why I like it. I get really close to her and say in a very firm, unhappy voice (I like to think it's not yelling...) "I will not let you hit/bite/throw your plate at me! That is not OK! If you do it again, you will have to go away from me.<BR/><BR/>If the behavior reoccurs, I say, "please go away from me now," and take her or send her to another room to be alone until she is able to calm down--I check on her every two minutes or so. Once she is calm, I say the same thing more gently, and with a hug and an "are you feeling better now? Great. Me too."<BR/><BR/>Again, please share your strategies if you have some you like.Testdriverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03596324722878187186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21595148.post-10749737712634134232008-10-20T13:47:00.000-04:002008-10-20T13:47:00.000-04:00Thank you for this post!I agree a lot with the "na...Thank you for this post!<BR/>I agree a lot with the "natural and logical consequences" strategy. After all, it is the only logical strategy possible:) But, did it happen to you that Nuvy received this strategy as a punishment? What was your response for that? Also, could you please give a few examples of the consequences you impose for breaking the ground rules? Thanks in ahead, MiriMirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07876205340533561739noreply@blogger.com